- "Wild Things: The Art of Nurting Boys" by Stephen James & David Thomas

-@BrianLawrence on LinkedIn

- @SkilledDad

**This transcript is mostly accurate. Some errors may exist.**

Zach: Hey guys, welcome to the skill dad podcast. My name is Zachary.

So I'm your host and I'm glad to join us both on video and on audio, maybe on the video. We'll see how this turns out. What do you think, Brian? Yeah, I'm hopeful for it. Yeah, I'm hopeful for it too. So, uh, this is one of the first Video in the tree house studios that continues to be a work in progress for those of you that have been, uh, tuning in and listening, tuning in.

That's like an old school word. I'm going to keep using it to tune in and listening to the podcast. Um, but there's no lie here. You've heard Brian talking, you've heard about not this Brian, another Brian. Um, we'll talk about it later. , but this is Treehouse Studios, but I'm thrilled tonight to have, , my friend, Brian Lawrence, join us.

Brian, thank you for coming. Thanks for having me. Glad to have you on the skilled that 

Brian: podcast. Yeah, it's a, it's a joy to be here, man. I'm looking 

Zach: forward to it. , we're going to have fun, like always and learn about Brian, his story. And I would say like very so often happens. We've been chatting it up for a solid.

Umpteen minutes and all the good stories are not all given, but we've kind of rehearsed them without playing the court, which I love. So I, I had the opportunity to work with Brian, but not necessarily alongside Brian for a number of years. But so we kind of got to know each other a little bit. We were more than familiar with each other.

We were more than familiar with each other. Yeah. I like the terminology more than familiar with each other. Uh, Um, but I've gotten to know each other more. So really over the last several months, I'm both part of a really fun group through LinkedIn that is like, I'm going to call it LinkedIn live. Just that's fair.

Is that fair out here in Nashville, Nashville, it's everyone that's connected kind of within this group all gets together once a month and, um, actually making it your social network social. Yeah. And everyone there is super creative. And every time I go, it's like, I'm jazzed. I'm ready. I'm pumped for new ideas, new systems, new things that can do, um, in, you know, whatever businesses that were, that were involved in.

And anyway, we've had a chance to hang out there. So I'm too. And 

Brian: yeah, I'm meeting with a person at the end of this week for some kind of skills and teaching that she's going to show me how to do better in my business too. Just because of 

Zach: that. I love it. It's going to be great. It is going to be great.

There's a lot of good people. So if you're in the national area. Check out LinkedIn. Come on out. And, um, follow Brian Lawrence. Follow me on LinkedIn. Let's all connect, as they say, on LinkedIn. And we usually put out, hey, when this is happening, so. Not unintentional plug for the LinkedIn live. I've just redubbed it.

Yeah, we'll tell Alicia and all them. That's fine. Yeah, it'd be fine But Brian has been on an adventure for the last year Especially and then I would say last several years because you are father of four father four boys four boys all boys all boys It's gonna be good. All under eight. Yeah, all under eight.

Yeah, I've already heard some doozies 

Brian: We joke that we have the most fun house in Middle Tennessee Just 

Zach: because he's gonna up the ante. They're like, oh, yeah, 

Brian: here we go Oh, I mean if you want to compare and compete, I'll let you win. That's fine. Like I don't I don't need to win 

Zach: this one That's fair You'll have to share the story that you you shared with me about your your new 

Brian: Water features?

Water feature. 

Zach: Yeah, in the house. I don't know if, you know, bring that up a little bit later, but... We'll weave it in there somewhere. Always something new and exciting. I love it. That's what being a dad and a parent's all about. Yeah. 

Brian: It really is. And learning how to respond appropriately. 

Zach: Uh, yeah. Still work on that one.

Yeah. It's, 

Brian: it's, it's a, it's a 

Zach: muscle to build. Yeah. That's why you're on here. Bring the wisdom. This is good. I get to ask the questions and just learn from everybody. So it works out that way. But, , no, we're, I'm pumped to have you here and, , I'm going to go ahead and just ask you that wide open question, which is, Hey, Brian, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself and let's just take it from there.

Let's take it 

Brian: from there. Let's see. Uh, Yeah. A little bit about me. So like I said, I've got four kids. I've got four boys, eight, five, three, and 10 months here at the end of this month. And we're just rocking and rolling. Yeah. We're having a good time with it. My wife and I've been married for 12 years. Her name's Danielle and we live here, I mean in middle Tennessee, we're transplants as most people out here are many of people from the, uh, you know, the west coast.

We, We came from Arizona to follow the work that we're, you know, you and I connected before. Yeah, and I ran into a oh Gosh, like the GM at a local coffee shop out here the other day. He had moved from Arizona two or three years ago okay, and I looked at him the other day and I was like People don't really know what to do with you.

When you say you're from Arizona, do you? He's like, no, like out here. And for those of y'all that are not in Tennessee, when you say the word California, they give you a funny look. And that's where, that's where I grew up, like in Los Angeles about for 20 years. But when they say I'm from Arizona, they're like, I think we're cool.

Like, I think that's fine. Where do we stay? Yeah. Like, I think, I think Arizona is okay. Sure. Great. You're in 

Zach: Arizona, Chicago. You're not in New York. You're. Not L. A. or California. What do we do? Yeah, people have no idea about Arizona. Everyone's welcome to Nashville, by the way. Yeah, so for 

Brian: seven years, rather than saying I'm from California, I've said we moved from Arizona.

Um, but, you know, uh, These days, I do, I own my own business from about a year ago. And when people are like, Hey, how are things going? It's literally business or kids. Yeah. Right now or marriage, you know, like, and it's, it's, it's a great balance, but that's really the things that are taking up the most of my time and, and I'm loving it.

Yeah. But there's not really room for much else right now. 

Zach: I think that applies to a lot of us. Yeah. Business kids. Cause when you, so you said eight, five, three and 10 months. Yeah. Okay. Are you doing sports? 

Brian: No. Oh, no. We've, we've heard that once you open that Pandora's box, like you're not shutting it. Yeah, probably not.

No, we've got the kids in gymnastics. They're in a like ninja class right now, but that's about 

Zach: it. It has a new element. Um, for 

Brian: sure. I've heard that it takes up a lot of your time and a lot of your Saturdays and a lot of your nights. And 

Zach: That's fair. Yeah, it does. But it's fun. And it's good. Yeah. Like you're golden.

Yeah. And, um, do you coach? Uh, I have coached. This is the, okay. So this is the first season. So we're doing baseball right now. It's about to be done. This is like the last week. Um, at time of recording. Um, this is the first season in the last six seasons that I have not head coached. Hmm. Yeah. And for the first half the season, I was like, what do I do with my hands?

I don't, I don't really know. What do I do? What am I supposed to be doing here? I'm not, I can't quite fully step in. I mean, I can, and I kind of do, um. But, this season I think what's been really cool, um, so yes, I do coach, uh, but there's uh, Payton's episode, if you go back and watch Payton's episode, we talk about some of the coaching pieces, there's a few of them, but.

Sometimes it's a challenge getting others to step in and help. Like, if you're head coach, you're like, Can I please get an assistant coach? Can I get two or three? You're trying to wrangle these kids. And this is the 10 you lead. So it's like a step above where you'd think that they would be a little more mature.

I think, you know, my six year olds were a little easier at some points. But, um, we have like six. Uh, guys that are always there and so it's been a lot of fun, like tag teaming, , but it adds a new level. It definitely does. It's, , have you heard of trail moving around? I've heard of it, but I don't know that I could speak to it.

It's kind 

Brian: of like a more faith based boy scouts. Okay. That's coming out here to our area. There's a handful of locations, but one's coming like really close to our house. Oh nice. I did boy scouts all growing up. Yeah. So my older. He wants to get into stuff like that. So we're about to kind of jump into that too, which will be a lot of fun.

That'll be a 

Zach: blast. Yeah. Fun. Fun. 

Brian: No, he wants to go camping. He wants to go do all this stuff. It's like, we've done that. Let's go 

Zach: do it. Yeah. That'd be awesome. Yeah. Activities are good. Activities are good. Activities are good. 

Brian: Yes. Getting well, well, just like we were talking before we even got started. Yep.

Opportunities to learn how to lose Well. Hmm. You know, let's talk about that. Oh man. Where do you want to start? 

Zach: Well, so, so we'll fill everyone else in on what we were talking about and just walking through the concept of, um, you know, the term, there's a term out there that others have used. Failure isn't fatal and, but also the importance of each day.

It's like, Hey, I'm going to, I'm going to go and learn something new today or I'm going to. Be facing something new today that I've never faced before. And. I think that's a healthy 

Brian: thing because there's an opportunity to look at that as exciting. Like, Oh my gosh, like there is that like scary part of me.

So I, I grew up and I was working in a Starbucks out in San Diego and this, I promise this as a point to it. But at one point I looked across cause San Diego is a destination place. Like people want to go there and I would talk to people over the bar. Hey, how are you doing? What's going on? And there's a regular that came in and I was like, Hey, question of the day.

If you weren't going to live here, where would you live? And he's like, I don't want to live anywhere else. Like, no, no, no. But I mean, like, you know, it's just fun. Like, where would you live? And he's like, I live in San Diego. Why would I go anywhere else? And he stormed out. He wasn't really upset, but he was not just with his 

Zach: type.

Did he, did he get his coffee? 

Brian: He got his coffee. But like, there was something about the whole, like, I've got no desire to push outside of where I am. And there was a part of me that was like, that's, that's a shame. That's really sad. Yeah, and I feel that over the years it's morphed into the same way about learning new things Like I love personal growth.

I love learning things and the idea to be challenged Something and to not be good at it. And if I mean You want to lose me for an afternoon? It's give me something that I'm almost good at and that I can see myself getting better at and then just put me in a Room with it like right. I'll I'll figure it out.

Yeah, and there's something about that's driven to me but when I see my son my oldest he's super competitive and this idea of if I don't do things the right way then I'm a failure or I'm you know, the perfectionistic tendencies of like I need to do it the right way Like, my wife was like, Oh man, that's totally from my side.

And I was like, but it's from my side too. Like both of us sit there and to be able to walk with him and saying like, Hey, failure is not, you know, final. Yes. That's true. But it's like, man, what would life be like if we didn't fail? Like if you just got it all the time, like where would the challenge be?

Right. Where would the fun be? If you could just be perfect at everything? Like, well, that's not possible. There was only one person that perfected. It wasn't you or me, but two, like. There's nothing to aim at. And it's been a slow and steady, like we were talking about that. John Maxwell, like sometimes you learn some, sometimes you win, sometimes you learn book and it's a tough pill to swallow.

I mean, even for, uh, you know, We've done Danielle, my wife and I looked at each other. They're like, we're the adults that we remember growing up. Like it's us now. Like we've got the children and we're, we've got a family in a house. Like we're those adults. Like we're the same age as our parents. And that was just weird.

Zach: It's super weird. Isn't it weird? Yeah, it 

Brian: absolutely is. And now you're teaching kids lessons and you're talking about being a dad, like. 

Zach: Yeah. We're, we're those adults. Not only are you talking about being a dad, we're talking about being a dad of four. Yeah. So we're not even necessarily like 

Brian: new dads. At our church that we go to, like my wife is now one of the older moms, not old age, but like that has the most kids.

Yeah. And when all these like, you know, people with one or two kids, which by the way, if you're a parent of one or two kids, that's still a lot of work. That's not demeaning anything, but they'll look at her and be like, Oh my gosh, four kids. That's awesome. I mean, 

Zach: yeah, let's come, let's come back to that one because, um, we're finding ourselves a similar position where people ask, was it harder from one to two, two to three?

I don't know. I've got a story for that. Yeah. Let's get there. But let's go back to the, the failure piece, right? Um, let's say that anybody that's, you know, listening, watching whatever here is about to be a dad. I don't even know if you can kind of go back to that, that point for yourself when before you had all four, all the things, you know, now all the, you know, failures you've had along the way, um, but maybe there's a place where like, I, I don't, I don't even know what I would feel at per se.

I mean, you can conjure up some ideas. , but. , what is something maybe that you remember that you could say to that, that new dad outside of, Hey, don't be afraid to fail, but like, what's something maybe that that you experienced that you can think back and say, okay, had I had a podcast or a manual or a book or something, because there weren't as many when we were having kids, there's more now, which is cool.

Um, but there weren't, what would something be that, that you would kind of equip them with? Man. 

Brian: Something that it took a lot of heartache for me to fail across and to not feel just like a real piece of work was failure when losing my temper and losing my cool when it came to like, I'm, I'm the guy that reads or understands intellectually.

I understand like the relational development and the, you know, Cognitive this and the, you know, what happens when somebody gets big with somebody else, especially from like a child development side of things. So intellectually I can sit there and be like, Hmm, that's probably not good if you lose your cool because they don't understand the words, they hear the tone and it invokes fear in you.

And you know, there's right ways and there's good ways to be able to do that. piece of work over here many a times would sit there after the fact kind of, uh, reviewing the tape as it were and sitting and being like, really? Yeah. You just did this like there. Two, there's three, like you, you were the, what did they say?

You know, be a thermostat. Don't be the thermometer. I don't read the temperature, set the temperature. Like, bro, you were totally a thermometer and you totally elevated to the level. And now you're the child. So for anybody that's, that's listening to this on the front side, one, it would say. Like you don't suck as bad as you think you do If and when you lose your temper To me like my big thing to coming back to it's not a matter of not losing your temper, which I work on But it's the what do you do after?

Yeah, like What I didn't give myself a lot of at the very beginning was grace and to understand of like, Hey, this is, there's, there's a reason that this is a journey. There's a reason that, you know, no two dads are the same from like life experiences. No two children are the same because they're being raised by different parents.

Like we can listen to principals all day long, but your scenario is going to be so completely and uniquely different. And that's such a good thing. Yeah. And I'd say, you know, learning from that and being able to say, like, I'm not a horrible dad. I'm not a horrible person. It just shows me that I've got places that I can grow.

And sometimes you do, you, you rise to the occasion. And afterward you give your, I give my wife a high five. And I was like, heck yeah. Yeah. I figured that one out. Or that one didn't, that one wasn't quite as bad. And then afterwards, like we walk into the room and I was like, Did it again, you know, so to me, that would be the big thing of like, it's not going to be, if it's going to be, when they're just going to push your buttons, man, like it's, you're not dealing with, with people that are rational with little kids and you shouldn't expect them to be, but that doesn't mean it's not going to be hard.

Yeah, 

Zach: Um,, that's great advice. It's also, you're not alone in that one. Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, you can talk to so many people. That actually is, you're talking through that though. One other piece that we had talked about is the relationship between coaching and leading at home and at work.

And so when you said thermostat versus thermometer, um, You might get a lot of practice if you're. Leading a team at work or you're part of a team, the same principles apply. Uh, what I've found in both for myself and some conversations is that for some reason, when you walk through the home door, it's like the, the, the, the work leader things and all the things that you practice and are taught that you're really, you know, better at.

Kind of go out the window and. You kind of, like, magically forget some of it. So you have to intentionally remind yourself, Okay, thermostat, not thermometer. I know how to do this because I'm doing it on a daily basis. Uh, this one's close to home, literally. Um, but the same 

Brian: principles apply. Well, I'll give you maybe a different way to look at it, too.

So thermostat and thermometer and how you're responding. But, um, you know, I was, I worked with, like, as a coach, I work with a coach and I have for years and there's been different people that from, you know, coach talking about parenting versus a coach that's now helping me with my business, being able to say, Hey, there's wisdom in getting counsel, whether mentorship, people that have done it there or people that can just see what you can't.

Well, one of the coaches that I worked with while my older ones were still little, we worked heavily talking through parenting things. I'm like, Hey, am I responding to this the right way? Am I doing this the right way? He used the analogy of, you know, if you're in a business all day, whether you run your own business or whether you're working for somebody else.

You're out there using your sword and you're slaying dragons all day. Like that's what success is. Like each job, no matter what you do, there's going to, should be a definition of success. And when you do that, well, you know, if you've got to make the deal, if you've got to deal with people, you're slaying dragons all day long.

And he's like, and if we're not careful, we will take that same sword home that we've been slaying dragons with all day and use it on our family. If we don't have an intentional rhythm and intentional way to be able to take that, set it up on a shelf outside the back door to put it up on the hearth. To be able to say this isn't in use right now.

Yeah. There's principles, and yes, there's strategy that I've used in the day of things that I'm doing day in and day out. But if I'm not careful, I start to treat my family like somebody that needs to be solved, like the problem at work. Hmm. Rather than somebody to be lived with. Yeah. And we can unintentionally use our sword on them.

That's a good one. And, you know. Anyway, that was a big eye opening thing and he even walked if for anybody that they're like, oh, yeah, I do that too. He literally said a practice was to find a halfway point between where your work was and where home was. Whether it was a stop sign, whether it was, you know, the piggly wiggly, whatever it would be.

Right. Yeah. Up until this point, I'm okay to think about work. I'm okay to keep slaying dragons and keep making my plan of attack for tomorrow. But as soon as I get to this halfway point, it's now to start flipping the switch and I'm in dad mode. How am I going to receive my kids when I walk in the door?

How am I going to be present with my wife? How am I going to ensure that this just doesn't accidentally happen? And he's like that intentionality, it requires you to make the choice, but be aware that it's a choice to 

Zach: make. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's good. I like that perspective. I don't think I've heard it shared in that way and there's, , um, all right, let me ask you this on, on that idea.

We're not slaying dragons. Um, we don't also necessarily want only be fun dad, right? There's still, we're still raising nights. Uh, if we've got boys, we're still raising nights and we're still, um, Um, you know, guiding the daughters, um, so from that perspective, that's where a tricky balance kind of comes into play.

Tricky how? Um, I think solving problems at work versus the home problems are, they're two different types of things. So we're not coming in like, what are our KPIs, you know, at home, we have chore charts. 

Brian: It's basically, how do you not lose the steam and some of like maybe the structure that you've had in the day and by just saying like, structure's out the window, I'm back home now.

Zach: Let's just do all things fun and everyone goes crazy and we're now like in a, in a circus house. Now, if that's how you want to run the house, like that's up to you. But as far as we, um, create the right structures. Um, and coaching and discipline were needed and guidance and love. Um, it might be too deep of a philosophical question for this podcast, but you know, kind of taking that, it's like you hit that halfway point and you switch into dad mode.

Um, so like, what's that mode look like for you? 

Brian: Dad mode to me, the word that, whether it's any of the work that I do, it feels like intentionality is the thing. And I think it's just a big question of like, what are you being intentional in what you're doing? Yeah. And. You know, intentionality is how people progress.

It's how they move forward. It's if you're working at a job, intentionality is going to make sure that you accomplish the stuff. But, you know, at home, if we have, you know, mission statements. If we have things that are, this is about our family. We've been serving somebody else during the day with the work that we do, but now we're serving a different mission.

We're serving a different capacity. There's still something about seeing that. Work be done well, you know, to the extent that like we are on time. We are respectful. We are honoring, you know, we follow Jesus in the things that we do. There's still a way that says like our house needs to stay in order with four kids.

It can get out of the order really quickly. It's insane. I actually know how quickly something happens. Like today I walked into my three year old's room before we even came here. And I was like, what happened to your room? And he's walking around without pants on, like, like, where did your pants go? And what happened to your room?

Like, it's insane how fast that happens. But the organization of saying, Hey, you know, we pursue Jesus. We honor our family members, like, you know, we're respectful to our brothers in this case because we've only got boys. We listen to mom and dad as the authority in our home. And when that works well, like our house isn't a mess.

And you guys actually that discipline equals freedom. You have more freedom when we've got more things. So to me, like dad mode is the yeah. As, as the total tangent, I didn't answer your question. It's being present. 

Zach: It was a good though. I like it. I like it. 

Brian: It's putting my, putting my dang phone down.

Yeah. It's, which I could always be better. We're also connected. It's one of the reasons I'm not on social media. Like I know that I'm easily distracted from things and I can very easily be pulled away from my kids for things that are important and things that are, especially as a business owner, going to make money for us or the things that are going on.

Being that intentional dad and being in dad mode means that I've got limited amount of time. Yes, but I've got limited amount of opportunity for influence when it comes to my kids. And I was telling you even before we began, like the story of why I do what I do was born out of seeing people's regret that of what they didn't do.

And I've heard far too many older guy stories of the regret that they had, of, man if I could do this again, I would spend more time here, I'd put the distraction down, I would prioritize this, I'd do this, and I see, while some days are harder than others, every day is an opportunity to really put a coin in that jar of intentionality.

Um, so to me that's, that's what dad mode looks like, it's not being perfect, God knows I'm not. But it's the, how do I show up to them in ways that I've witnessed too many other people say that they didn't try doing. 

Zach: Right. Yeah. 

Yeah. Um, what does it look like for you? I was, I'm thinking through it. See, this is the hard part. I asked the questions and then I have to think about like, well, what, what do I think I'd say? I think it's very similar. It's changed. It's evolved over time because the first couple of years of. Of my dad mode really wasn't much different.

Brian: I was super reactive the first couple years like you you respond more than you are Proactively doing 

Zach: anything. Well, I mean first couple years Babies growing and it goes fast and they're like huge before you know it and my first couple years for my firstborn I wasn't I was there in the weekends, you know, so totally different And so dad mode was was was very different and then for my my second and my third It has evolved as well.

And I think some of that comes with like, by the time you get to the third kid, I saw a really good, like coaster. Somebody made, um, at some ladies that I went with my wife, I was the, I was literally the only guy in the shopping place, major points is awesome. But it said, you know that you have multiple kids when your child licks something on the ground and then they say, ah, I've seen them like worse, you know, it's kind of like, ah, you're fine. 

Brian: They're going to be fine. The more multiples you have, like I joked that my youngest two are going to have a very different dad than my oldest two had.

When we first moved out here, we only had two and they're. All boy all the time like there's just there they have one speed and one volume and We went to the optometrist out in our town at Target because you know, that's where we go Yeah, and he had six kids or something like that and he looked at us and said hey, you've got to You're in the hardest throw right now And it took me a moment.

I was like, but you've got six. What are you talking about? He's like, you get six, you get the older ones that can help the younger ones. He's like, you've got a toddler, you've got a baby and a bigger baby, which is what toddlers are. He's like, you are in as hands on a mode as you can buckle up. It's going to get better.

So to have an optometrist or six kids say two is the hardest. I All right. I can totally vouch for it. He 

Zach: was totally right. Yeah. We were going to circle back on that one and I think we just did. If you're at two and you're thinking about three, go three. It's so much better. Three is like, Oh, for sure.

Absolutely. You know, in our opinions, uh, and that's the thing. I don't know about 

Brian: four, but three is good. You might be listening or looking at this and saying, you guys are nuts. Two is a lot. You're totally right. But there is something about the, okay, here's the experience. The first one is hard because you don't know what you're doing.

But the first one gets all of your attention. So the first one, as far as life is concerned, the world is about them. The second one comes along and the first one might be depending on your spacing. The first one's a bigger baby. That's fine. But a bigger baby that expects the life to still be about them.

So when you give your attention to the second one, the first one's going to be like, what's the deal? And that's going to create all sorts of stuff. So the baby's being a baby and the bigger one's like, this is the wrong attention I should be getting. And then finally, when the third one comes along, the second one's like, I've been here before.

It's never been just me. The first one's getting their act together by realizing, okay. This, I've seen this before. I'm leading this troupe. And the third one is none the wiser that there's ever been such a thing as only one child. Right. And the fourth one is like Crawling around the floor at dinnertime, which is what happened tonight.

Like he just Little Samuel, he's just doing his best. He's, he's great. But he'll just be crawling around and find stuff and we're like, Mmm, don't 

Zach: put that in your mouth. Don't do that. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah, while you're leaning back. Yeah. 

Brian: Like, is he? Yeah, he's cool. Yeah, he's fine. Yeah, he's 

Zach: okay. We're gonna create the silhouette of progression as a parent.

First child, no. Second child, no. Third child, eh. Fourth child, you'll be okay. That'll be fine. Yeah, you'll be fine. That'll 

Brian: be fine. Somebody else go grab that out of his mouth. Great. Thanks, guys. Yeah. 

Zach: They'll be okay, guys. They'll be okay. So if you're thinking two to three, my vote sounds like Brian's vote.

So, uh, take the leap. Three's good. Yeah. And, uh, you know, if you're feeling froggy, go to four. Easier than two. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, to answer your question, cause I went on a tangent debt. So dad mode for me is having that switch is that mental switch. Um, And from a work, when we were doing the whole work from home thing, um, which, which you and I did for a brief time, um, prior to, uh, where you and I had worked together, I only knew work from home.

It was work from airplane, work from hotel, work from home. Um, so you may not have an office that you're driving home to or a stop sign, but you got a front door. Presumably a back door, a garage, something. Go take a little walk. And then on the walk back in, walk into your dad mode for me, it is, well, some of it's like, get in, get your gear.

Let's go to the baseball. Right. But. It switches from the work, um, ideas, obligations, things that are kind of working back here to solve to not only what can I help teach, what can, um, I help foster, but what can I show? Uh, because a lot of people will say it's not what's taught, what's caught, um, which I fail miserably at.

A lot, I can say a lot of good stuff and then they see it and I'm like, God, this is going to be bad in 17 years. But, um, but that's where I really try to focus of what am I helping teach? What am I helping enforce? Where can, where am I saying like, let's just have as much fun as possible and creating that balance and there's testing and iterating that goes along with it, because as soon as I think I've kind of like had an unlock.

Um, they've just done some mental leap and now they're at a totally different mental level of what they can do, how they process, what they solve, and I've changed too. So it's a fun piece that we're tying it all together here, a little bow. We can't stop trying to do those things and, and, um, and being intentional, even if it feels like we're not making as much ground because we are, whether we know it or not, we're teaching something.

And we're going to fail, but they learned that failure too. 

Brian: Well, in realizing that the Especially because everybody grows. We grow, but they're growing too. And again, back to that cognitive or behavioral or what, what have you, if you want to get on nerdy, like you can, um, that's what I do get nerdy 

Zach: with it.

Um, that's, I'm all about that. Like do a dad podcast, baby. We're going to get nerdy 

Brian: with it. If there's, if you're a boy. Dad, if, uh, there's a book called wild things. Have you checked that one out? Oh, like the art of like nurturing and raising boys written by like two psychologists that basically look at the different, here's what's happening in them right now from a mental developmental, here's what you can expect.

Here's what they need. Here's the boundaries that they need to have. Like if we can realize that in the same way that we're growing every day. And they're a different person and growing every day and what they need is different and everything like that. I think we just, we give each other more grace.

Yeah. Rather than, I don't know about you, this is probably me because I'm just, again, a piece of work sometimes. 

Dude, it's just, I mean, that's something that even right now I want to go and review because you know, where are those different jumps and 

Zach: well, what I like about wild things as well as that, it breaks it down into the years.

Yes. Yeah. And so it's like, you can actually, it is kind of like a version of a manual that you can go and read and it's like, okay. Here's where we are. What 

Brian: can I be expecting? Where are we going? Yes. Yeah. 

Zach: It's been so good. It's been really good. Uh, do you remember the authors? Yeah. Me neither. I'll put it in the, uh, yeah, we 

Brian: can link it over there.

I don't remember the authors, but it was, it was insightful to the, and again, I, I hope that I don't come across as anybody. That has it figured out that knows all the right things to do. And then I'm sitting here on the other side of figuring it out. Like y'all, I'm, I'm in the trenches. Like I'm with four and I'm seeing firsthand how different each one of them are from one another.

That, you know, you come off the first one and you're like, all right, I'm figuring this out. And the second one comes along to that same age and you're like, been here, done that. And then their personality and strengths and weaknesses are different than the first one. You're like. Okay. All right. And then the third one in our case comes around and well, they're different than the second and the first and now the fourth one, you know, like, I think that there's something back to that grace.

side of like, you know, you're, you're always learning and you're going to think it's going to be going better. And a lot of the times it will. And I will say that, and this is total tangent, total aside, anybody in the dad space. Um, I joked that when we got married, there was always that one family member that shows up and says the things that they think are funny, but that are actually super unhelpful and super discouraging.

Like, you know, like I've got the car out back, you can, you can still call it off now, you know? And I was like, well, one, uh, that's not helpful. That same person shows back up when you're about to have a child and they're looking at you and saying, Hey, uh, you know, it's good. Goodbye to your sleep. Goodbye to your freedom.

Yeah. You know, your life is never going to be the same. I hope you had fun. They're right about that one. You know, like the fun 

Zach: thing, the sleep thing, like, well, and 

Brian: your life is never going to be the same. Yes. But in like a totally different way. Yeah. Not what you think. And. It makes me super frustrated for people like that because some of the times the things that people that are about to get married or about to have a child need the most is somebody to look at them and say like, hey, it's going to be different.

Hmm. Then maybe you expect some of those differences are not bad. You're going to learn. It's going to grow. It's going to stretch you. But man, the people that tell the stories, myself included, the bad stories are usually the most fun. Like when you have to throw away rugs and lamps because there's so much poop on them, like that you can't do anything with them.

On lamps? 

Zach: Oh, you nailed 

Brian: it. Oh, dude. Okay. We've, it's, we've seen some stuff, but like, those are the fun stories to tell. And I've scared a lot of, you know, non childhood. Uh, co workers in the past where I'm like, you know, I'll keep these stories down, but the equally ones is when like unprovoked your five year old comes up and says, dad, I love you.

Yeah. Like without needing or wanting anything in return. Yep. You know, like there's those, there are far more of those than there are the crazy ones. And it's like, I wish people would tell those stories. Yeah. I wish people would look at those. And if you're, if you're a dad, if you're a mom, if you're somebody that's either new in the game or thinking about having a family, like.

I'll just say this from somebody you've never met before, uh, those people's voices don't matter if they're saying those things to try to discourage you, like anybody that's trying to discourage you about something that is like wonderful, shouldn't be listened to on that. 

Zach: And we don't know why they'd be discouraging.

So it's, you know, there could be. There's a lot of pain, 

Brian: there's usually stuff that comes from, but like to look on the other side of somebody else that's about to have their own experience and to automatically just put that on them. It's like, man, that's 

Zach: wrong. Yeah. That's not right. You shouldn't do that.

We're glad you're here though. If you're listening, you made this far in. Yeah. If you listened this far. It's like, Hey. Uh, go after it and when you go after it, regardless of what community size you've got, you've got this community right here. And if you have questions, just throw them in here. I'll send them all to Brian.

Brian: Well, that's what I love like that you have this is that loneliness is such a thing. And we were talking about, you know, leadership. Meaning so many different things, but like so many people and I I'll pick on dads right now Yeah, because this is what we were talking about before here. Yep Like I think that there is such a it's easier to see in in business but I think it's just as insidious and in homework and home life too is that as The male leaders of our home and I'm, I'm making some generalizations here, but like as the male leaders of our home, there is a certain weight of responsibility that we carry to do it.

Right. And there's a certain way of like, man, it's my job to instill the values to lead my family. Whether, you know, you make money for your family or not. There's a certain level of I've got to do it right, and they're looking at me, and if I've got sons It's the way I feel like I'm responsible for raising four young men Mm hmm, and I feel like I'm still figuring it out on my own right like I'm still figuring out.

What does that mean, too? Yeah, and to be able to step back and say all right It's gonna be okay We're daily learning how to get better but from the community aspect to be able to look and Ask other people for help is not weakness. It's incredible strength to look at somebody and say, the thing that I'm trying to do matters so much to me that I don't want to get it wrong.

And I'd really like help. Yeah. Yeah. And I think the world paints it as weakness and it's, it couldn't be farther from the 

Zach: truth. I, yeah, I agree with you. It's the, it's, it's a version of not asking for directions. Right. It's pride. Yeah, it's pride. It's arrogance. It's fear. And that's, you know, we are figuring it out because no two, um, no two guys have the same combination, typically, of children, personalities.

Wife, family dynamics, all of those things, but I can tell you through the conversations I've had through Many of the other episodes that there's a common DNA that we all share And that's the part that we want to tap in and say like hey Here's the common DNA that we can all not have to reinvent the wheel on that we can learn from Um, and you had said a couple of times, like, well, I don't have a perfect, I'm not the expert.

None of us do. That's why we have this. Right. Otherwise it'd be super boring. Cause it's like, here's what you do. You know, here's my course, the five episodes, just do this and you'll be fine. Um, well, 

Brian: if they're here too, there's a, probably a common thread amongst us all that says like, we want to get better.

That's what I love about it. You know, like this is not just a, well, I hope it goes well. Yeah. It's a, this matters too much to not 

Zach: do it. Well, exactly. Um, it's a big deal. And especially, especially now for a number of different reasons, um, that the evolution, even though the perspective of, of, you know, men in the household and like all the different pieces of not being like an Al Bundy or Homer Simpson dash, right.

We're all kind of the goofball. Um, when most guys I know are not right, but from a branding perspective, that's kind of some of the brand. Um, we're kinda gonna speak to the other side. If you don't have a group. To talk to because a lot of a lot of guys don't the stats on there aren't great and The lone wolf really survives, so we don't necessarily need to go be that lone wolf, but we can learn from each other and you You had said I'm not the expert I love the analogy that is in the movie, Catch Me If You Can, and they finally caught Leonardo DiCaprio was playing his character, um, after he was, you know, I guess it was a little while after he had been teaching a college course and they're like, how in the world did you go and teach a college course?

Like successfully. And he said, it wasn't that hard. I just had to be one chapter ahead of the class.

A few chapters ahead of someone that has two kids, maybe going to three or three going to four. So there's something that you can take and be that expert through experience on for that person. Um, you know, and so I love taking that perspective. It's like, no, I'm not the expert on all things. I'm a fellow traveler.

I'm we're a fellow traveler. We've been down this road. This one might look like it. Um, so. You know, come join, 

Brian: but yeah, it's so funny. You say that like I was honestly I was on a What's my business coach today the end? I'm working with he used the same Frank Abagnale, jr Catch me if you can reference into something completely different about the being a step ahead Of the psychology class like not six hours ago So this is, there's, there's something here.

I'm going to have to go journal on that. Cause there's two times in one day. There's something to that. 

Zach: You went from catch me if you can to inception. Yeah. Like, oh man, 

Brian: we're in it, man. Leo, 

Zach: Leo, coach. And I talked right before this. Yeah. Right. 

Brian: He's going to be coming on. Just say that it's going to blow his mind.

It's going to blow his mind. Uh, 

Zach: well, with the, with the final time that we do have, um, You know, what are, um, I got, I have two questions for you. The first question is, um, this is the skilled dad and I get a lot of people that ask me first time they see it, um, there's usually two responses. Like one is, Oh, what is it about? Like there's an excitement around it because I think there is for some a desire to be like, what is this?

And, uh, I'm interested because there's a connection piece. So it was fulfilling something. The second part is, do you teach hard skills? Coming at you not too long down the road. Um, but in some ways on a podcast, a lot of it is kind of the soft skill pieces, which is important piece. But as a skilled dad, both the things we fix, , both from a hard and soft skill perspective, you know, that's what we're aiming to do is help equip people to go and build things.

So what is something that you, whether literally or, you know, figuratively are building right now that you're excited about? Man, 

Brian: I think there's a couple of different ways that I can answer that. The first thing, and you've heard me talk about it a little bit is I really do see that one of the most vital missions of my work and all that I do right now is, is raising for good young men that love Jesus, that, you know, are Contributing members to society, which is a simple way to say, but like that, that have moral principles that have strong integrity and fiber and are, I'm not trying to bake stuff into them that I'm not doing myself, but to me to see and do that to me, I see that as the biggest, most valuable thing that I'm building.

building a stronger marriage. Uh, that to me, like if there are rank orders of things, it is like my marriage and my boys and with, with more time and, and more stronger drinks, it would be, I've seen just a lot of people that didn't see those things as vital pieces that they needed to be pre prioritizing.

Yeah. And as a result, it got the. Remainder of what their energy was, it got disproportionate attention. And to me, it's like, that's why it needs to come first. Um, the thing that in the last year, you know, I'd be remiss of saying, but like, it's, it's building a business and that's daily talk about daily figuring things out that you don't know.

And, you know, people have called it that chief everything officer where there's things that you're coming into. Contact a lot with the fact that you're like, oh, oh yeah, I don't like that. I'm not good at that, but it's still a bigger piece of the puzzle. So like, between my marriage, between my boys, between a business, I don't know if there's a whole lot of time.

I mean, building friendships and maintaining relationships, but. I'm never gonna be the car guy. I told, I knew that from like a long time ago. Like people were like, man, we just want to rebuild a car. I'm like, eh, . Like not the car guy. Oh, I'm not 

Zach: the car guy. That's okay. Yeah. You don't have to be the car guy.

You're building something 

Brian: else. Yeah. I love people that 

Zach: are with the car guy though. Yeah. It's good to know a car guy. Yeah. Yeah. Really good to know a car 

Brian: guy. Yeah. But I'm never going to, if I ever come and talk with you and you're like, you know what I'm super jazzed about right now, I am restoring a car.

You'd be like, you're doing that for somebody else. That's not you. 

Zach: That's why you gotta, you gotta know that. 

Brian: Yeah. Oh yeah. That's, that's out of my league. Yeah. You're building business. Yeah. Building the business, building, building the family 

Zach: and building.

You know, I'm just going to say it because this is what we're all doing. You're built. They're literally building the future. You have no better opportunity to make an impact on the future than the four little ones in your house right now. Yeah. 

Brian: And so, I mean, the, and the way to that can be events. It can be insane.

And the honor is just, uh, just as cool, but yeah, those, that's what I'm 

Zach: building. I love it. Last piece. Last question. Um, biggest takeaway that you would leave somebody based on your experience with four kids, eight through 10 months up to this point.

Brian: The biggest takeaway that I think I'd have that might be a little weighty, but I think it's worth saying is that the impact that you make, the words that you say, the way that you respond, the things that you do matter. And, you know, some people might be listening and be like, man, like, what a way to finish out a conversation.

Just kind of lay that on me. And I, but I don't mean that in a, you know, like, well, watch your, watch your Ps and Qs. You know, there, there is a level and I think it's appropriate. It should be appropriately weighty that the things that we're doing with our families and the things that we are instilling on them, that whole caught the top thing that you just talked about.

Yep. Um. Yep. I think it's an appropriate way to say, like, it's important and the words that you say need to be thoughtful. And my wife and I have talked a lot about the whole, because we're not perfect thing and the not wanting to, uh, lose our cool. Sometimes we're better at it than others. One of the things that a hundred percent of the time that we are putting in practice is that if that happens, we are apologizing and asking for forgiveness.

And, um, I don't know about you, but that wasn't modeled. Mm. That wasn't something that I saw. I never looked at, or saw from an adult to a child perspective that the adult would ask the child for forgiveness. Mm. And, not that we're peers, but that my child and children, if I've wronged them, Dad makes mistakes.

Mm. And I need them to see that. And. I guess the same way that I just said that is that, you know, if I'd leave you with something is that your words matter and your words matter. I love it. And it, it means a lot. Yeah. Yeah. 

Zach: Words matter. They're important. They're powerful. And they stick. Yep. If people want to learn more about you, about what you do.

Where's a good place for them to find you? 

Brian: Annie F. Downs would say on her podcast that she's embarrassingly easy to get in hold of because of all the social channels that she's on. And I would say it is ridiculously easy to not get in touch with me because I'm not on any social channels. I'm on LinkedIn, um, to be able to talk professionally, but...

Uh, that's probably the best way if you're going to bump into me digitally, uh, that's fine. Otherwise just hang out in middle Tennessee coffee shops and you'll probably see me somewhere even better in the 

Zach: live. That's the way to go. Brian, I appreciate being on here, man. This is a blast. Dude, this was good.

Um, I have so much that's swirling my head right now. I'm just going to go and I'm going to go journal about all of it, but no, it was, it was so fun. Um, and hopefully we can do it again sometime, please. I would love that. But the conversation doesn't have to start when the record button 

Brian: stops. No, it'll probably keep going once we stop here.

Actually. 

Zach: Yeah. Well, no, I appreciate it. And, uh. You know, everyone, I appreciate you listening to Brian, so we'll look forward to having you on. But guys, I am so glad that you're on here and that you were listening at this point. Maybe you're not watching, but we're going to fill that one out. The camera's playing games.

Um, but the biggest thing about this podcast. You can like, uh, always appreciated, subscribe, all those things, because what that does is help this podcast reach other people that it could help. Um, but most importantly, two things. If you know somebody that you think can learn from some of Brian's story, um, please share it with them because the aim is to kind of help other people that might be in that zone at that time.

Uh, the second thing is. Take in what you can take and apply to your life on your journey to becoming a skilled dad my takeaway is We're not perfect We're always learning the only failure that I won't be able to tolerate for myself is if I were to give up That to me is a failure And continuing to push forward as they grow, as I grow, as I learn and to go after the challenge.

That's the fun part that we get to go do. So we look forward to seeing you on and talking to you on the next episode. You're listening to the skilled dad.