• @LukeLeFevre
• Holywork.com
•  @SkilledDad

*This transcript is mostly accurate. Some errors may exist.**

Zach : Hey guys, and welcome to the Skilled Ed Podcast. My name is Zach Reeser. I'm your host, and buckle up, because we're going to have some fun with my guest today. Mr. Luke Lefevre is joining me on the podcast, and I want to, first I want to say, thank you, Luke, for jumping on here with me.

You 

Luke LeFevre: got it. You got it. It's a pleasure to be here. I'm so glad to be here. Luke 

Zach Reeser: is one of the more fun people you're going to be around, and When it comes to creative ideas and creativity and also like really harnessing kind of some of the core things that you're focused on or trying to get to that point, Luke is the man.

And so that's when I saw, you know, some of the, uh, the things that he's going to dive into and what he's doing. I was like, man, I wonder if Luke would be on this podcast with me. Um, especially around a certain topic, which we'll, we'll hit on in a minute. But, um, I. You and I had the opportunity to work together, um, on some of the same projects for a while, and then also just seeing each other in, a previous workplace and had a lot of fun.

And um, I'm just pumped to have you on. 

Luke LeFevre: I'm excited about this. Pleasure being here, man. You got it. I'm so good. It's so cool what you're doing and helping dads, uh, do their thing better. Love that. It's great. 

Zach Reeser: You know, this is the, the saying, you're a creative guy. You can tell me if this makes sense. You know, there's a lot of emphasis around like DIY and doing it yourself.

And you know, I love a lot of those things, but when it comes to being a dad, I don't think it should be DIY. 

Luke LeFevre: Yeah, that's good. So I think that's why we have 

Zach Reeser: good people like you on here because you're going, you're experiencing life and things you've learned and you might be a chapter ahead of somebody else.

And 

Luke LeFevre: well, I remember when I had my first daughter, she's, she's like 17 now and we brought her home from the hospital and in this little carrier case. And I remember we, we, we left the hospital and we were like. They're just letting us leave. Like there's no, there's no test. There's no, do you know anything of what you're doing?

And they just let us leave and we got home and we set her down on the. Top of the stairs, you know, in the carrier. And we just stared at her and we're like, what happens when she wakes up? We're just in it, you know, nobody checked on us. And it's like, you get more, you get more guidance, uh, to get your driver's license than you did having a, making another human it's insane.

So I totally get that DIY is not a great plan, 

Zach Reeser: you know, it's. It's not a great plan. The good thing is there's more resources out there for dads specifically. But yeah, you're exactly right. You, you have a more extensive test when it comes to driving and you know, we know how well that goes for some people, uh, than it does the strap of human being in your car.

Did they at least check like that? 

Luke LeFevre: You should have checked if my buckles were Yeah, they didn't check that I was capable anyway. I guess they're 

Zach Reeser: like, well, you can't 

Luke LeFevre: return it. So yeah, it's, it's their, their problem now, I guess. 

Zach Reeser: Yeah. Good luck. Hopefully we don't see anytime soon, but yeah, you're exactly right.

Like we don't get a manual for it. we have. All of a collective experience that, yeah, we don't have to do it alone, but yeah, but that's what, that's why you're here, brother, to hear, to hear what you've learned, to see , what you're doing. And sometimes, you know, the sit downs that I've had so far, a lot of the learnings also come from when we didn't get the buckle strapped in right to the car.

Yeah. 

Luke LeFevre: Right. And so somebody else doesn't have to make that same. Mistake, you know, right, exactly. 

Zach Reeser: Or at least we hope not, but yeah, the, uh, no one was hurt in making of this podcast, by the way, that's just hyperbole, 

Luke LeFevre: but not yet. Yeah. 

Zach Reeser: Yeah. We hope not, but not yet. Um, so Luke, I'm going to, I'm going to throw out the, yeah, the big question, which is, well, it's probably just more of a, tell us about yourself.

 Some of your backgrounds, your story and the most kind of take it from there. 

Luke LeFevre: Well, um, Luke, um, 44. I have a, I tell you that because I have a, my wife and I've been married, uh, for 23 years. We have four kids. She was my, uh, Actually junior high and high school, sweetheart. And we broke up for a little bit after, after high school, but we got back together.

So we've been together forever. Yeah. Four kids. My oldest is 17. My youngest is 10. And I don't know if I should say this out loud because my kids might listen to it someday. But I mean, I was talking to my mom not too long ago and she reminded me of. The kind of kid I was in high school. I said, I didn't want to have, uh, I didn't want to have kids.

I didn't want to have a dog. She even, she told me that I said, I don't even want to have a plant because uh, that's too much responsibility. And so like, uh, I've had to. I've had to learn a lot and force myself to embrace this. And, um, there's been some, I've learned so much from being a dad. And, um, they've, they've taught me so much about how it's not all about me.

And that's a, that is a lesson we all need. And so, yeah, um, I. Was, actually I was at Ramsey Solutions for a long time, almost, uh, 15 years as a, uh, leader of the creative team there in different facets over the years, but about a year and a half ago, I left to start,, this business ministry about helping people follow where God is pulling them.

 And. I call that process when you actually listen to where God is pulling you, , holy work, because he's transforming you as you follow that. Now I say that's holy work, but over and over again, my wife, , reminds me. And I I'm reminded over and over again, that my most holy work, our most holy work is raising our kids and being with them the other day.

We we've got a lot of snow here in Nashville. You know that. And, um, uh, there was a snow day and. I was, you know, I was doing my normal thing and I had a couple meetings and then I was trying to write and do some stuff. And I was just like, there are only a handful of snow days that ever happened. And I grew up in the North and there's snow there all the time, but school was not canceled all the time.

You know, it was pretty rare. And I was just like sitting here and I'm like, this only happens a handful of times in our whole life. Like we're going sledding, like I'm going to cancel a couple of things and we're going sledding like this, you know, I just embracing the, the, the idea of being a parent and, taking that seriously has been a learned trait for me over the years.

Um, I don't have it all figured out, but I think we've done a couple of things. Right. And, uh, but it didn't, didn't always come natural. That's for sure. Yeah. 

Zach Reeser: On the snow days. You know, that's interesting, um, because we've had this baby snowmageddon in Nashville, which, you know, I grew up in the north as well, and we're like, yeah, it just wouldn't 

Luke LeFevre: cancel.

Yeah. You know, 

Zach Reeser: it's just Tuesday for a while. It's like, yeah, it's like you just keep going. But one of the things that has changed since those times is like the work from home aspect. Yeah. And so you have a lot more work from home. So for, for a while, if it snowed, like. There's not much you could do. I guess we're gonna go sledding, but now it's like you have to make that conscious decision to say You know, I'm going to put pause on this and go sled.

 So I snowboarded, sledded and skied 

Luke LeFevre: last week. Really? Where'd you go to ski? Well, 

Zach Reeser: I say that loosely. I had skis on my feet and it was like a Tennessee hill. Uh, our neighborhood has this, this actually pretty good hill. You can get at least like a, , 20 second run, which is great, but, uh, but no, I love that, that you.

You kind of recognize that and take that time, step away and say, yeah, the South, we're getting, five days in like two years. Yeah. Cause last year, did we get any last 

Luke LeFevre: year? No, we got nothing. Yeah. The, as, as, as you're talking, um, you asked me before the podcast, you know, what are some things you want to talk about?

And I didn't bring this up, but my, my wife is just, she's so intentional with. Like with making memories is what she calls it. She's like, I just want to plan things that, that make memories. And a lot of me maturing as a dad is because of her having just the inkling of an idea. And then I'll, I'll run with it, but basically because she's like forcing me to do something.

So she'll, here's what she'll do when, um, my daughter who's 17 now turned. Turn 13? She's like, Hey, let's make a big photo book. And I want you to write her something. And I love writing and making people feel things through words. And, uh, so she'll be, she said, you know, Hey, go write something and.

We'll put it together in a big photo book and give it to her on her 13th birthday to remind her of who she was Because she's about to go into these teenage years that everything's gonna be coming at her, you know trying to take away who she is and So we would do things like that My wife has really encouraged a lot of those things and then I'll I'll get excited about it once my brain gets going but at the beginning A lot of, uh, uh, her prompting.

And I, I think it's, that's what marriage is about. It's about, you know, balancing each other out. And so there's a couple of things like that, that, that I'd like to talk about eventually in our conversation, these intentional things that we did at 10 years old, 13 years old, 14 years old with our kids and walking through those two, 

Zach Reeser: no, I'd love to hear that.

And let's, let's go back to holy work in a minute. But, um, it's interesting you say that with the. You know, it takes a little prompting. Um, you know, I, I, I score probably like 25 percent on good analogy. So let's hope that this falls into that, but it's kind of like going to the gym too. And then sometimes you just don't want to go, you're like, I'm not going to go.

But then once you get in there and get that rhythm, you start seeing changes, results in strength. Um, but it takes that prompting and that catalyst. And sometimes it's really hard to do by ourselves. That's where if you got a good buddy, You just make sure that he pings you and gets your butt 

Luke LeFevre: out of bed.

Yeah. Are you, uh, on the Enneagram, are you an achiever? I think we've talked about this in the past. Do you know what your personality kind of is? Well, um, 

Zach Reeser: it's up for debate, I would say. If such a thing as a threight existed. Then it would probably be along those lines. Okay, great. Yeah. Yeah. I know there's a lot of, , tie ins between similarities and differences, , but my wife will tell you that I'm, I'm definitely along the, , the eight line.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, and then others would say that it's more along that three zone. So okay. I myself am conflicted, so if you can provide clarity on that. No, 

Luke LeFevre: I don't have clarity. A 3 and an 8, sure, you know, a 3 will become what they have to, and an 8 will get crap done, and so that's great. I only asked because of the prompting, I'm a 9, and, uh, there's this quote that I I heard about nines that I think is funny, but it sucks at the same time.

It says they start off slow, but then they taper off. And then they taper off and then they taper up. And there's another one that's like, uh, a nine we'll do whatever's easiest. Uh, whatever is the least amount of work and, and takes the least amount of energy, you know? And so if I, if I just go to my natural sloth like character, I, I will not do anything.

So I have to always be conscious of, alright, don't, don't just be lazy. Don't just Sleep walk through life here. And it's the same. Well, 

Zach Reeser: I'm glad that you showed up to the podcast in that case. And then go ahead and get a paper off beforehand. This is great. I'm here. You nailed it. Uh, that's funny. I've not heard that, but you know, it's, it's funny.

 But, I think there's similarities with what we're hoping. Um, are in many cases doing with this podcast is that sometimes just having the knowledge is what can help you move. Yeah. But if you don't know what to do, um, you know, then.

I don't think there's a lack of people wanting to do something. They just don't know what to do or what they can do. And so through, through knowledge and building things like this and through you, um, somebody is probably going to have something that's like, Hmm, yeah. I want to hear about those intentional things that you did.

We were 13, 14, 17. Yeah. 

Luke LeFevre: Well, it's, when the kids were young, it was like, I'd come home from work and we would just wrestle, you know, or. Right. Around on the floor. And that was super, super fun. Like it didn't take much to be intentional other than being around. And I think that is, that is important, but I, it was my.

My oldest daughter's, yeah, she's 17 now, like I said before, but she was turning 10 and it was the night before her 10th birthday where I was like, , boy, she's 10 years old. Like that's a decade. Like that's important. And what did I plan for tomorrow? You know, for her birthday and. We're, we're Christians and we're believers.

And I was like, did I, what have I done to guide her other than us praying before bed and, you know, things like that. And I'm sure she figured some of that out, but I was like, Oh, you know what I want to do is at 10 years old. Up until that point, kids always have like the kid Bibles, you know, the, with the drawings in them and stuff like that.

So I was like, I'm going to go get her a. I'm going to go get her a big Bible, a grown up Bible with, you know, a nice one. And maybe it'll have pink leather on it or something. And then I'm going to, I'm going to do something intentional. And so I woke up early. It was the next day. This sounds like I planned it all out, but it was really the night before like, Oh no, what have I, what have I done?

And so I went and I got her a nice Bible. I wrote a note in the front of it and then got her up in the morning. And I said, Hey, if your 10th birthday, we're going to go to the top of this hill. There's a hill over here in Spring Hill, Tennessee. That you can climb to the top of you can see a lot of the view and we drove up there and got to the top and there's a little bench up there.

And I just said, Hey, turning 10 is a, is a big deal and it's where you start to mature in a different way and you start to, to move in a different direction, uh, from being away from just being a child. And, uh, so I gave her this Bible and I made it ceremonial, you know, we were having fun. It wasn't like serious or anything.

We got Chick fil A and we're eating it up there and gave it to her and she was like, yeah, cool. You know? And it wasn't, it was, it was great, but it wasn't like. And then the Holy Spirit came down and showed us exactly the future. It wasn't anything like that. And then we drove home and we got back, but I was like, you know what?

She's going to remember that. But what happened was, um, my next son, uh, he was two years younger than she is. And he said something, I think it was him. Yeah. He goes, cause I had forgotten. I'd done that for her. And he goes, Oh, and then when I turned 10, I get my Bible and I was like, Oh my gosh, they are all watching everything we're doing and they're, and they're talking, you know?

And so that thing that I kind of made up the night before for her, he brought up and has become one of those traditions that, that we do. And so I've done it for all four kids. Now we take them to the top of this one Hill. We get to Chick fil A because it's like ushering in the next decade of their life.

And hopefully having, having God as the guide, you know, through that for them. And just, just things like that, that are, Oh, geez, you know, you kind of feel like you're making it up as you go, but. Then you do it and you're like, okay, I'm going to do it again. I'm going to stick with this and make it make an important thing.

And so tried to figure out some different ways of continuing that on, um, and as the kids get older. So that's like the beginning of those traditions at 10, you get this. And then we do some other things later down the line. 

Zach Reeser: I love that so much, not only because it shows like how much they are watching and how much they might want something, but like how just even so like with your first, that was your first.

Yeah. And so, you know, the first birthday of the first child is always a celebration, not only for the child, but for the parents, because babies survive, like, for the whole year. 

Luke LeFevre: Everyone's, everyone is still 

Zach Reeser: good. Um, but it was even the intentionality of wanting to go and you had the idea, you went to go try to get it done.

And the byproduct, it's like one of the greatest things about. Unintended consequences can go both ways. So now, they're like looking forward to it, or they have looked forward to it. You created a tradition and a ritual. But I think it also shows me too, like, That there's, there's some inherent, maybe I'm reaching a little bit of reading too much into it, but there's like also an inherent, like, I want that from their side and they're looking forward to it.

And that is the milestone that helps transition 

Luke LeFevre: to adulthood. It was their enthusiasm. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It was, it's, well, you know, there's that, um, there's a book out there called, king warrior magician lover. I see, I can see it up here. It's by a Moore and Gillette, but it's called king warrior magician lover.

And there's a story at the beginning of it that talks about this initiation rights of some old tribal, um, uh, Indian Indian tribes. And, and there's a story in the beginning of the book. And I think they're talking about a movie that was made, but this, this boy. I think he's a Caucasian boy gets left with this tribal group and he's there for years and years and he grows up in this tribal group and he starts to like the chief's daughter as he gets older and the chief sees what's going on and he says no the boy must die that boy must die and so all the tribesmen take this boy and they take him out into the woods and you're watching this and you're like oh my gosh they're gonna kill this kid and they're kind of freaking him out you And they throw him in this cave, and they leave him there overnight, and there's all these ants in the cave, and the ants are starting to bite him, and they basically leave him there for dead, like, this boy has to die.

Well, the chief knows the kid's not gonna die. So the next morning, the kid wakes up, he comes out, he's all bruised, he's bitten by these ants, he's terrified. He comes out, and he looks around, and the chief says, The boy is dead. Now here's the man you can date my daughter, you know, and this initiation rights, I was like, what things can we do to guide our kids into adulthood versus let's just 18.

And then good luck, you know, um, you're off on your own and those, those initiation stories really prompted like, okay, how can I initiate my kids through this? Yeah. 

Zach Reeser: Or worse yet, they never get them and then they're in their mid to late 30s or later and still 

Luke LeFevre: wondering if they are right. And do I have what it takes to do this as an adult, right?

Zach Reeser: Yeah. Um, yeah, that's a, I mean, that's, that's a phenomenal story. The boy must die. 

Luke LeFevre: Yeah. Boy must die. It kind of 

Zach Reeser: reminds me of like the latest Dune movie. 

Luke LeFevre: I haven't seen it. Well, I saw the latest one, but there's a second one coming out. I don't think the second one's out yet. 

Zach Reeser: Yeah. So, well, not the, not the newest one that's coming out cause it's not out yet, but, but the old one, it was like the, I'm showing off my nerdiness right now, but like the whole, the, the Queezac Hatterac character, like the main guy needed to die so that the other one could be reborn.

Some more, some more concept, but no, I love that. That's right. That was called King, 

Luke LeFevre: Warrior, Magician, Lover. Yeah, King, King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. And it's about those four stages that a man goes through. And you start off as the lover, you move to the warrior. You then, uh, become a king and then a magician, which is the sage as you get older.

Zach Reeser: I love it. Okay. I'm going to add that one to the list. 

Luke LeFevre: Yeah. It's good. I love it. This is why I love these conversations. There's always 

Zach Reeser: just things that come to mind. It's like, boom. All right. So tell me about your framework. Cause you, we touched on holy work. We talked about what you're building. I'd love to hear like.

It's one thing to love something and another thing to put all the effort, time, and resources into building something. So like, what led you to do that? And, and, and then what is it that you are 

Luke LeFevre: doing? Work, I mean, it kind of goes to, uh, even when I was talking about that, taking the kids up to the top of this hill.

Have you ever felt, um, A pull in your spirit, a restlessness or a stirring to do something. Um, um, you probably felt it to start this podcast. Uh, there's something happening and I, and I need to, I need to make it. Well, I call that thing the pull and we all had this pull to create something and I've had it for my whole life.

And when I was in college, it was caused me to just be an angsty. Angry, you know, discontent person. And, um, I was not a happy person, but God eventually got ahold of me and I still have these, these poles and what was angsty has turned into, Oh no, that restlessness and I feel is God. And so as I was at Ramsey and working in my role there with a lot of different creatives, I.

Would write and talk a lot about this poll because I led creatives and I want them to follow The things that they want to create and that was for a brand and that was for a business But you can also take that you can work it for a business, but then also take it to your personal life So we have these polls and so I had a lot of writing about the poll Then I had a lot of writing about Um, uh, journaling and I had a lot of writing about the war that we face.

Like when you start to follow this poll, when you start to wake up and follow where God's leading you, there will be war against it. Like you'll feel stupid or you'll have a bunch of voices in your head. I had a bunch of writing about wilderness and decisions you need to make and all this kind of stuff.

And I started to have this idea that. Oh man, I want to write a book. I don't know what it'll be about creativity and leadership and God and mixing all this stuff together. And I, I probably had that thought starting in 2015. So almost 10 years ago, but I didn't know what it was going to be or where it was going to go.

And 2016, I was like, well, this year I'm going to write that book. And you know, I didn't, I'd get a couple of blog posts out and nothing would happen. And yeah, tapered off. Exactly. And the next year I thought I was going to do it too. And I didn't do it. And. We get to 2019 and I was like, God, I'm not going to make that a goal again.

Cause I'm just going to disappoint myself because I I'm here at Ramsey. I love being at Ramsey. I'm all in here. And so I'm just going to set that aside. Is that, is that just like a selfish desire of mine? Or is that actually from you? And, you know, this is all the things I'm wrestling, but I, so once I kind of let go of that, that thing, I was like, ah, I'm not going to worry about it.

Here in 2020, I had this little nudge to just gather up all the writing I had done and just see what was there. And so I gathered it all up. I put it in a word document. And it came to like 60, 000 words, which is a lot of words. It's about the length of a book. Now it wasn't a book. It was just a bunch of random stuff.

But what I started to do then was categorize all the content in there. And so I got these note cards out and I started to put them in little categories. And I was sitting at a coffee shop here in spring hill. And I looked down at all these piles of note cards had kind of formed seven different piles and.

I looked at those and I'm like, holy cow, there's a path here. It's not, it's not just a bunch of categories of stuff. There's a path that we follow when we are actually following where God is pulling. So say you had the poll to start this podcast or someone listening, had a poll to, um, start homeschooling or start a family or, or whatever it might be.

You have this poll, but immediately you're like. Okay. Is that from God? Is that my own? Uh, how do I, how do I know what this is? And is, is that actually from God? Well, that's where the second pile of cards came in. And it was what I call the proof that God put that there. And so I had a bunch of writing about the fifth word of the Bible being the word created in the beginning God created.

And then it says, we, as man are made in his image. Well, the only thing we know about his image at that point. And this story is that he was a creator. That's it. So we're made in his image, but the only thing we know is that he is a creator. He makes things. And then third in Exodus 31, Moses is at the top of a mountain and he's getting all these instructions for.

The tent of meeting and the tabernacle and in the Bible, Exodus 31 is a, it's kind of a boring period of the Bible because it's all these details about stuff that's going to be made. But I, I read this passage 5, 6, 7 years ago that said the first person the Bible mentions is being filled with the spirit.

Was a guy named Basil and you're like, what, well, he was the guy that God filled with the spirit to make all of this stuff that Moses was being instructed to build. God filled this man with the spirit to make all this stuff. And so you read that the fifth word of the Bible was created. We, you read that we're made in the image of God, and then you read a not insignificant point that the first person mentioned as being filled with the spirit.

Is someone God wants to make something with, this Bezalel guy, he wants to make the Ark of the Covenant, the Tabernacle, the Tent of Meeting with a human. And I think that's so significant that the thing he wanted to make with a human was going to hold God's presence. It was the 10th meeting, the tabernacles, the Ark of the Covenant.

God could have made all that on His own, but He wants to create things with you. He wants to be with you as you create. So, a bunch of writing about the proof that God put these ideas in you. Then a bunch of writing about the practices that you have to go through, and the practices of journaling, and seeking God each day, and giving yourself over to Him, so that you can actually hear Him.

Then there's the war we talked about where once you start doing this, um, you get resistance, you get fear, you get voices in your head. Then there's the wilderness where you just got to show up and do the work. Then there's the threshold you have to cross. And then ultimately you reach the permission to go after your purpose.

And so there's the pull, there's the proof, there's the practices, there's the war, there's the wilderness, there's the threshold. And there's the purpose. And so this, this path, I'm like, when anybody is starting something new, they go through this, you question whether it's God. But then you're like, are you, are you not seeking him?

Then you hit the war and you doubt it and you wrestle it and you doubt yourself sometimes out of it. But then you just got to show up and do the work. And then sometimes you have to make hard decisions and cross that threshold. And then ultimately you find what the whole point is. You find the purpose.

And so that process is a transformative process that I think God is taking us all through. And that process is finding your Holy work. It's not just work. It's something deeper. It's something sacred. And so that's what, uh, that's what I I'm building. I do some coaching on that and I do some creative leader coaching, but it's all helping people find and follow.

God's calling them. I 

Zach Reeser: love it. This is why, this is why I don't know, know, know if I like video stuff because when I'm like, re I'm receiving Yeah. What you're saying and like Uhhuh thinking about it, and then I'll look up and I see just like the Yeah. The, the, the thinking face. Yeah. That's reserved for everyone else.

No, I love, love it. Oh, it's all good man. It's all good. And just my mind is like processing some things that you said. I mean, you talk about the pull. Hopefully we all have a pull to something. Yeah, um, 

Luke LeFevre: And I think if we hang out in that section, it's a little a little bit like what that feels like Is not often like oh, I want to go make a a movie or whatever it is.

Sometimes it's just restlessness Sometimes it's just a feeling of being unsettled, um, where you, you can't really put your finger on what the problem is, but that's where that restlessness that some of these dads listening to, um, this podcast, if you, if you feel restless or a stirring, you just don't know what to do with it.

That's God. He's trying to wake you up. He's, he's trying to poke at you so that you will actively start to seek him to figure out where he's guiding. Yeah. Well, that's, 

Zach Reeser: I'm glad you stuck on that a little bit because, , sometimes we can get restless when we're looking at Amazon and we just want to make an Amazon purchase.

Right. Right. Right. So I think that's where the. We, we can get, we can get the 

Luke LeFevre: pull and we get 

Zach Reeser: the desire, um, but then you have the proof, right, to kind of look at 

Luke LeFevre: discerning a little bit what that is. Discerning, because yeah, that pull can lead you to alcoholism. It can lead you to escape because you're like, I'm restless, so something must be wrong.

I need to go have an affair or something horrible, you know? Right. It's 

Zach Reeser: kind of like recognizing that you have that pull. Yes. Is it fair to say? As, as you're building this or have built it and as you're working with people on it Yeah. That the, if there's that thing, it's maybe not necessarily just that momentary, but if there's that thing that keeps coming back to you and you're just like restlessness, but you're restless with something specific, 

Luke LeFevre: you need to, that there's someone to listen to there.

You need to listen to that. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. And it doesn't mean up and quit your job, but it's a guidepost in the right direction, you know? 

Zach Reeser: Right. It might help. Guide you and that. Well, and you said it. And then you have the proof and then, the practice.

So like you've discerned that, hey, we're like, yeah, there's, there's some things that are lining up here. I'm gonna put this in the practice and I'm gonna go and, and do the different, build the 

Luke LeFevre: pieces, build the components. Look what says like practice. Go ahead. Oh, go ahead. The practices are really. Are you actively seeking God every day?

For me, I was very restless the first 10 years of Mandy and I's marriage. And that's where the angst came. And I had some addictions that I wasn't able to get over. And, um, I was just that angsty, restless person. And I was at a point where I was like, I don't. Something has to change and God, what are we going to do?

And I was a believer, but I wasn't actively seeking him every day. And so I started to really doubt whether any of it was real. And so I said, okay, but here's what I'll do. I'm going to get up early. I'm going to read one chapter of this Bible and I'm going to start writing what I actually think about it and being honest with it.

And that's, I started getting up early and I just started writing out my actual feelings and thoughts. And that's where my practice of journaling started. And for me, it was a therapeutic thing. It wasn't like, Oh, and now I'm going to seek God every day. But that's what it turned into. It was me just writing out my angsty thoughts and feelings, but then it turned into, Oh, I started to have favorite work.

And I started to have these ideas about my kids and blah, blah, blah. Oh my gosh. Seek ye first the kingdom of God and all these things will be added unto you. And that's what the journaling. Has helped me with it's transformed my life. Um, and it's, I've taught a lot of people how to do it since then. And it's transformed their life too, but that's really what I mean by the practices.

Are you actively seeking him every day so that you can discern, um, what's your, what's your own desires? What's him actually guiding. And it's not easy. I mean, it's, it's, it's a practice. Um, but that's why I call it that. And so, right. 

Zach Reeser: No, thanks for defining that a little bit further. Cause my mind, I jumped ahead and I'm looking at your site too.

So as the final, your site, the practices or build the habits and practices into your life to help you recognize God's voice. So you stay on the path. Yeah, exactly. You talk about the pull some of those with an entrepreneurial spirit sometimes have pulls and lots of directions Which is why sometimes they don't actually get stuff done Shiny objects.

Yeah, right. 

Luke LeFevre: Yeah, I have that. I have that as well. 

Zach Reeser: I Think a lot of us that do but but that's for you know, having a system that helps us be disciplined. Yeah And then, okay. And then the war, the resistance you're going to get, um, and then get past that battle and you're, you're now in the 

Luke LeFevre: wilderness and the war doesn't actually end, it's not like, Oh, I, I got through the war and I got through the wilderness, the war is just something that's constant.

Um, when you wake up, so does the enemy. Um, you will start to say you are drawn to do some more things with your kids in a more intentional way. Well, immediately. Who knows what's going to happen. Your kid will get sick or they'll give you an attitude or whatever it is. So something's going to happen to help stop you from wanting to do this.

It'll be some kind of resistance. It'll be some kind of fear. It'll be some kind of voice in your head that says, who do you think you are? You're, you don't have what it takes to do this. And those are the things you have to recognize and keep moving on anyway. Yeah. Yeah. No, 

Zach Reeser: I like that. Um, I would almost my, my brain jumps to, those are the things you should expect, recognize when they happen and then keep going.

Yes, exactly. If you're doing it, if you're doing it well. Well, it's like. 

Luke LeFevre: That's killer. Partly, it's what Mandy and I have talked about is. I stepped out, left Ramsey, and four months later, she gets this diagnosis of, uh, breast cancer. And I don't need to go into details here, uh, but that was immediate war for us.

Like, was this decision right? What's going on? You know, all of a sudden you start doubting everything. And, and I'm not saying her cancer was war against my career or something, but immediately. You start to doubt all the decisions and fear and voices and resistance come in and you can choose to crumble under those or you can be like, Nope, we expected this.

All right, but we're going to keep going, you know? Yeah, 

Zach Reeser: yeah. Thanks. I mean, thanks for sharing that with us. I know you and I talked about it briefly prior to jumping on, which, yeah, that's, that's one of those things and topics and areas. It's just. It goes into 

Luke LeFevre: everything, right? As I talk, uh, just real quick, as I talk about all this holy work stuff, sometimes, uh, as we, as men, it's like, well, I want to accomplish something.

I want to build something with my life. I want to, I want to be amazing or blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And a lot of times God's just going, Hey, your most holy work is. To be at home with your wife during this period or to take your kids out sledding, you know, it's, it's that kind of stuff that, that we always have to remember as we're trying to prove ourselves or whatever we're doing 

Zach Reeser: the term that, um, I use quite a bit on this.

And this was actually from somebody when this first started, he said it and it's just stuck with me, um, is be where your feet are 

Luke LeFevre: and, 

Zach Reeser: and some of that too. I'm going to mend that like in this moment, this is like milestone, we're going to mend it. Evaluate where your feet are and, and, and then be where your feet are.

So you also need to understand during this time, it's like, Hey, what is the most important thing? My feet, do they really need to be here right now? Yeah. Um, and that's based on what your priorities are and what you've set. And if you don't have those, then everything's right or wrong. 

Luke LeFevre: Yeah. Um, 

Zach Reeser: well in the, you've mentioned it a couple of times and I'm familiar with it.

I'm not as great in the practice of it. But it's journaling. I want to, I want to sit on that one for a minute. For sure. Um, 

Luke LeFevre: can you explain 

Zach Reeser: to those that may not be familiar with it, as to what it is, maybe what it isn't. Yeah. And I'm going in with a little bit of, when I've had the conversation around it, there are some preconceived notions, so I'll just set the table with them.

Some of the preconceived notions of like, 

Luke LeFevre: like you mean like a diary, like diary, 

Zach Reeser: right? It's like, you know, there's a, there's a, there's a connotation that kind of comes with it sometimes. And by the way, um, the only reason that Indiana Jones was able to find. The Holy Grail was because his dad kept a diary.

I wouldn't, I wouldn't, I wouldn't call his, his dad not manly. He was Sean Connery, he was a ball baller. But anyway, yeah, if you, if you kind of dive 

Luke LeFevre: into that for us. There is a stigma around journaling. And I mean, there's a stigma about men having feelings and acknowledging their feelings. And, and for me, like I said at the few minutes ago, I was desperate.

Um, I had to do something with this discontentment that I was feeling. And so what I mean when I say journaling is actually getting a journal and a pen. And writing out the truth of what you're thinking and feeling and, uh, the spiritual disciplines that people in, in saints and theologians have talked for years is silence and solitude.

And those are, uh, the, the ones that Jesus did. He would run off, uh, after big crowds and he would go get away by himself. That is what the practice of journaling actually does is. You go, you close the room in your, in your office or wherever it is in your home. You get out a journal, you say, good morning, father, or dear God, or whatever.

And you write for five minutes, 10 minutes, nonstop. About what's going on in your head. And there's a, that's how it was for me. I just started writing and some of it was fits and starts and, and, and bullet points and lists and blah, blah, blah. But eventually it does turn into a, a conversation. And, uh, this, what, what I, what I prescribe to people and what I've learned is to do is I come in and I sit for one minute in silence and I just.

Turn off the phone. In fact, leave it in another room if possible. Shut the door and just sit in silence. And don't put any more inputs into your brain. We have so much stuff coming at us all the time that half the battle is just getting quiet. And then, after that minute of silence, just get your journal, get a piece of paper, and just start writing what is going on in your head.

It could be. I'm worried about the tires on my car. I'm worried about groceries and I'm worried about paying the bills this month. I'm worried about the neighbor outside putting his garbage can out while I'm writing this and I can hear it and it's bothering me. What you're doing is you're working through what's called an epidermis level response.

These are the surface layer. Worries of this world. And if you don't lift your pen, you don't judge what you're writing. You don't worry about spelling or grammar. And you do that for about five minutes and you just keep going, just going through what's going on in your head about the five or six minute mark, you will have worked through all that epidermis level stuff and stuff will start to come out that you had no idea was there and.

Um, I've been doing this for such a long time, but I've been starting to research, and there are scientific studies behind this stuff. There's a book out there called The Body Keeps the Score, where the author is Dr. Bessel and he says, um, there's a 50 percent drop in doctor visits. There's improved mental health by just journaling your actual thoughts and feelings.

Stuff starts to come out because your brain is like a, you know, one of those ping pong ball things that show the bingo balls, you know, it's a, that's your brain and there's just thoughts going all the time. But having, journaling out what's going on is like a budget for your mind. Because we cannot hold all this stuff, especially in our 2024, uh, time that we're in or in a culture, there's so much stuff.

And so building that habit into your life will change your life. It's part of what caused me to have those ideas about taking my daughter up to the top of the hill and giving her the Bible because I, I had given myself space to think and we're supposed to, we're dads and we're thought leaders and all this stuff.

But how can you be a thought leader if you never give yourself any time to think you have to get quiet enough to actually think. I love that. So that's, that's the, it's, it sounds like a, you know, at least a Frank diary in elementary school or something, but really it's, it's, our minds are so incredible and they hold so much and men try to figure it out.

Like you were saying earlier on their own and they don't know what to do with all the stuff knocking around in our heads. I didn't know what to do. And so I had to start getting it out and it's transformed my life and it's transformed a lot of other, other men's life too, as I've walked them through it.

No, it's 

Zach Reeser: what she just said as far as they don't maybe know what to do, or you're battling against the idea of what other people think. Number one, nobody's going to know if you journal guys, 

Luke LeFevre: no one knows, 

Zach Reeser: um, unless you tell everybody about it. And then chances are, they're going to be like, Oh, someone else is doing, and that's called social proofing and now they're going to do it.

And so now we're. We're actually doing beneficial things. I'll be vulnerable with you for a minute. For the first five minutes or so that I always have, um, I think like subconsciously I must think of like Shakespeare or something. I always find myself like trying to rhyme and like write these poems and I'm like, this is ridiculous.

What is this? I don't even know why, why I'm doing this. Um, but the, the psychosomatic piece that you said the book was called the body keeps the score. That's all the stuff that's, , under that you don't always even know is up here, right? That's still impacting the machine. 

Luke LeFevre: And, as, I mean, there's Chip Dodd, there's, uh, he talks about the voice of the heart, and what you gotta do is you gotta work through this stuff that just clogs our brains up.

It's, it's, it's college applications, it's all this stuff, and we just hold on to it, but if we start writing out and just keep going Your brain, it's, it's like, uh, it gives your brain a chance to start putting things in file folders and making sense, making sense of this story. And eventually you do work through it and about minute four or five, um, some, your brain starts to change a little bit and some deeper things start to come out.

Uh, there's four, four layers of it. There's the epidermis level, which is what we're talking about, but then you go deeper into muscle layer. Which is deeper and that's where it's really the deeper cares of this world where you're through worrying about the weather. And you get deeper to be like, no, like, what am I doing with my life?

And then it goes deeper to the heart and where you can actually start to figure out how to express what's going on in your heart. And then down to the bone where sometimes you have to reset bones that are, that are, that are, um, need to be broken and, and reset so you can grow.

Yeah, there's the body right there. Yeah, exactly. And get down to the body. 

Zach Reeser: I appreciate you breaking that down and you got it. So being that this is some of your wheelhouse, um, and I think you've got a new program that's going to be coming out. That's focused. Oh yeah. Yeah. Around this. 

Luke LeFevre: Isn't that right?

February 20th. Um, I'm doing a holy work journaling. Um, uh, we did, we've done it many times. We did one back in November, but this is our winter ones, the February Holy work journaling course, and it's six weeks and we will meet once a week through zoom, um, starting February 20th and we'll go through March 26th and what we'll do is you will practice and learn how to go through that epidermis level, uh, each week, and then each week we'll add something to it.

So you learn that practice. This is a, this isn't Luke just talking and teaching things. It's you're going through experientially because what happens is people are like, all right, I listened to Huberman or, or David Goggins or whatever. And they, they say things like I'm saying now, but then we don't go do anything with it.

We hear it. But what happens is if when you set aside an hour and someone's with you and I'm guiding you through it, that causes you to actually do it and you can actually start to see the benefits and actually get a closer connection with God and see a clear vision for your future. So what we're going to do is we'll go through that epidermis level, we'll go through that muscle layer, the heart layer.

Then we'll talk something about the pole. Where is God guiding you? What's the war that's fighting against it and what's the wilderness you need to work through. And so that's what we'll work through. Um, on this journaling course, starting February 20th, you can get some more info. Um, 

Zach : yeah, knowledge is just good trivia unless you actually put an application and that's where you can be skilled.

Luke LeFevre: Exactly. Exactly. So that's a great way to put 

Zach Reeser: it. 

Um, okay. Where can everyone find you? They want to follow you, see what you got going on. Where's the best place to check you 

Luke LeFevre: down? Again, my name is hard to spell, but, uh, Instagram and LinkedIn, but my name, if you go to Luke Lefevre on Instagram and Lefevre is L E F E V R E. Um, that's where I put out a lot of stuff, uh, encouraging stuff about some of this Holy work thing.

And, um, that's where I would go. But if you can't remember how to spell my name, just go to holy work. com and you can find my Instagram stuff there. Love it. Or read the title 

Zach Reeser: of this episode again. Yeah. You're good to go. Yeah. We're trying to help everybody out here. Um, well, no, I appreciate it. The time just flies on these things.

You got it. And I know we gotta wrap, but we'll be thinking about you. And what you guys are facing and, um, , just like we say to everyone on this podcast to make sure you're not doing it DIY, but love having you, man. And, uh, it goes fast because it's fun and that's because, um, it's a, it's a fulfilling conversation.

, so thank you again 

Luke LeFevre: for being on here. Yeah, thanks for having me. It's a pleasure to be here. So good to see you again, Zach. You 

Zach Reeser: too, brother. I appreciate it. Hey, everybody. If you've listened this long, I know you've got some things that you took away from this conversation with Luke and I, and go check him out.

LukeLeFever. com. You can look at it again in the show notes. Uh, but most importantly, if you took something away, I bet somebody, you know, Also could take something away. So share it with them because the whole point of this podcast is to help build things together and support each other in a way that we can go and equip ourselves and our families to be successful in the future.

Um, you can follow us on socials at skilled dad, like usual, and we're going to see you on the next episode, but we hope that you took something that you can apply to your life on your journey to becoming.